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Questions to Ask Mormons Pt 2: Do you have Maps in your Bible?

Leaving on a Jet Plane,.. Don't know when I'll be back again,.. Oh wait,... I can't get a ticket there?

Faith is vitally important in any religion.  However Christianity does not call for a blind faith, it offers evidence after evidence to those who are looking for greater faith.

However I think that  many Mormons have a greater faith in some ways, because they have no evidence to speak of, no gold plates, no artifacts of the people that they say lived in these great and monumental cities and artifacts that they did were later proven to be frauds.  It is not the focus of this blog, but the Book of Abraham and Joseph Smith’s “Reformed Egyptian” has been demonstrated a clear deception, so those cannot claim that to be a demonstration of evidence.  And the Native Americans as Lamanites,.. that will have to be saved for another time, but DNA has proven without a doubt that they are clearly not Hebrew as they have been told and are still being told DESPITE the evidence to the contrary.

They Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has no Official Historic sites of significance dating back to the time of the “Battle on the Hill Cumorah” or the time when Jesus is said to have visited the Americas bringing peace for a time. You can find “Historic Sites”, but the oldest are around 1850’s. So I say again, that they believe in what they do not see, Mormons believe blindly.

A DVD series that takes you to Ancient Biblical Historical Locations Old and New Testament

BIBLICAL ROAD TRIP

So when talking to Mormons, you might mention that as Christian, we can pull out a map, from our Bible, off the internet, from the local Borders and look at truly ancient and historic sites from the past as mentioned in the Bible. We can actually visit, Jericho, Bethlehem, Jerusalem, Cana, Beersheba, Gaza, Bethany, Hebron, Laodicea, Rome, Jericho, Nain, Masada, Sychor, Bethany, Nazareth, Corinth, Galatia, Samaria, Joppa,… I could go on and on. Watch the You Tube Clips Below. This is a single DVD broken up into 7 parts. Check the reference section for where you can get the full version!

MORMON HISTORICAL TOURS?

Now ask a Mormon,.. could you schedule a flight, or even pull out a map that is sanctioned and accepted by the LDS Church to anywhere mentioned in the Book of Mormon that is not a location listed in the Bible? Has anyone ever been to Nephi, Jershon, Bountiful, Zarahemla, or any city ever mentioned? Can they even locate the continent? They can’t! And that is how deep their faith Goes!

Regarding Maps and Geography

In Part One: The Narrow Neck of Land – Meso America? (7:21-9:31 — The end of the clip)

In Part Two: Maps and Mishaps (00:12-1:10)

“In a broader context, where are the cities that archaeologically, geographically and historically correspond with the Book of Mormon text?  To date, there have been none discovered.  There are a plethora of speculative theories (see references in the previous section for sample maps) from LDS scholars and lay members but there has yet to be a genuine verifiable discovery of a city or group of cities that match the characteristics and time period given in the Book of Mormon.” (Bible Think, 2011)

Just for fun here is a Drive Through History Clip– I love this series!

Greece Almost a full 30 minutes The whole Episode! Sweet!

 feferences and Resources

Map Retrieved from:http://www.ancientamerica.org/library/media/HTML/7hvlmli5/book%20of%20mormon%20map.htm

Mormon Think (2011). The book of mormon is not supported by any archeological evidence.

DVD-The Bible Vs. The Book of Mormon-http://sourceflix.com/the-bible-vs-the-book-of-mormon/

Next Question: Are We Speaking the Same Language?

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12 thoughts on “Questions to Ask Mormons Pt 2: Do you have Maps in your Bible?

  1. Not sure I get your point. You say: “So when talking to Mormons, you might mention that as Christian, we can pull out a map, from our Bible, off the internet, from the local Borders and look at truly ancient and historic sites from the past as mentioned in the Bible. We can actually visit, Jericho, Bethlehem, Jerusalem, Cana, Beersheba, Gaza, Bethany, Hebron, Laodicea, Rome, Jericho, Nain, Masada, Sychor, Bethany, Nazareth, Corinth, Galatia, Samaria, Joppa,…”

    Mormons can also pull out a map from their Bible (they use King James Version) that mentions various places. They can also visit them. Places such as Jerusalem, Cana, Beersheba, Gaza, Bethany, Hebron…. etc.

    So yes, they do have maps in their Bible.

    • Yes I do believe you missed my point. And it may be my fault. If you will understand, these are questions that an inquisitive person might ask a Mormon about their Holy Scriptures. If they have litle knowledge about your texts, they might assume that the Book of Mormon is ANOTHER Bible, because it is said to be another testament of Jesus Christ. And after talking to the young men and hearing about the history therin may want to know where this took place, and they may even ask Mormon Missionaries if they have ever been to , or even heard of anyone els going to some of the places mentioned in the Book of Mormon? So I ask, is there a map that fits REAL WORLD GEOGRAPHY, in the book of Mormon? Check for yourself,… I will wait,….. there is not,.. and that is my point, and you emphasized it for me. You can take a KJV or any other translation for that matter and pull out a map and locate nearly any location and find out history about it and mostl likely even visit the site. But you can’t do that with any,.. any of the book of Mormon locations…. have you ever asked why that is? This is a tough spot for Mormons, no Mormon President has ever given a speech from Beautiful Jershon, or historic Nephi.
      This is an area where the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints must admit that they have not historical or geographical evidence. For such a great peoples and nations to exist and leave nothing behind is simply not possible. Even Mormon scholars cannot agree on location and due to Book of Mormon, are forced to make the Geography fit the Text, and there is not real world land mass that works. Every Mormon, needs to decide how they can explain that away.

  2. •Why is it that numerous LDS books and papers describe proposed Book of Mormon locations for cities and the “narrow neck of land”? No city has been identified as being Nephite, Lamanite, Jaredite, etc. For example, Zarahemla was occupied for hundreds of years, but we still don’t have any real evidence of it ever existing. The Book of Mormon describes a time period from 2000 BC to 400 AD and millions of people. No city they occupied has yet to be found.
    •Why didn’t any of the place names from the Book of Mormon still exist when Columbus arrived?
    •Where was the Hill Cumorah? Was it in New York or Central America? If it was in Central America, why hasn’t it been found? If it was in New York, how did they move that quickly and where are all the remains?
    •Why don’t significant gaps exist in the archeological record of Mesoamerica if these “missing” people existed?
    •Did the Book of Mormon take place outside of Mesoamerica? The History of the Church records an incident from June, 1834 in which Joseph Smith identified a skeleton found in an Indian burial mound in Illinois: “… the visions of the past being opened to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty, I discovered the person whose skeleton was before us was a white Lamanite, a large, thick-set man, and a man of God. His name was Zelph … who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains.” (HOC 1948 ed., II: 79-80). NOTE: MormonThink has completed an essay on Zelph that goes into detail about the story of Zelph and its implications on the BOM historicity.
    •Why don’t [non-Mormon] archeologists theorize Hebrew or Egyptian linkages or influences in Mesoamerica?

    • Please tell me where the Garden of Eden was? – show me on your map of the Bible. Show me the physical proof.

      How about Noah’s ark? Has that been proven? Do we know the place where it ended up?

      There are many parts of the Bible that are unproven. I assume that doesn’t lead you to believe them any less? I assume you have a spiritual conviction that the stories are true?

      • And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
        (Genesis 2:10-14 KJV)
        Well the Garden of Eden was likely in the Middle East possibly in Modern Day Turkey, and we do have a map for that. It is true that we cant take a “Garden of Eden” tour, but I think that if you had read your Bible you would not sign up for it anyway right. We see that there are at least one of four very likely candidates for rivers, the Euphrates still has the same name. SO to answer your question, the Garden of Eden was in the general vicinity or this river as opposed to Canada. It is in a real world setting, with real world land marks. And I understand why you have brought this up, but you have not addressed why YOU believe without any evidence whatsoever! Dan why have you not addressed these issues? If I was a Mormon,.. I would be frustrated. Maybe you just have more faith than I do?

        In regards to the ark, It was made of wood,.. what is the relevance of if or where it landed? If it was discovered entombed in snow,..nifty but there is nothing in Christianity that hinges on the Ark?

        Many parts of the Bible that are unpoven… potentially, but many are being discovered every year and it is exciting to see how the Bible is validated time after time. As a Mormon,.. I would want to be able to say that too. But the LDS Church cannot.

      • So you acknowledge that there are parts of the Bible that have not been ‘proven’ as yet. You may be able to identify a general region, but not the spot – hence you cannot show me the Garden of Eden on a map.

        This is a very valid point, since your attack on the Book of Mormon is that we cannot identify it on a map.

        I’m sure you are aware that the ‘Bible lands’ have been explored for an awful lot longer than the potential ‘Book of Mormon lands’. There is much work yet to be done. If we identify a region, will that enable you to believe the Book of Mormon?

        You might find this interesting: http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/Archaeological_Evidence_and_the_Book_of_Mormon.html

  3. Then if you understand the position, and are writing this for the benefit for other Christians who do not, it would perhaps be more helpful if you were to not refer to the Book of Mormon as being “their Bible” because you know it is not. You ought to have made the distinction, as Mormons use the same Bible as you do (albeit perhaps a different translation). In addition to the Bible, they use the Book of Mormon, and yes, whilst it is another testament of Jesus Christ, it is not a replacement of the Bible. After all, within the Bible we already have two testaments (Old and New) and we do not call the Old Testament a “Bible”. The Bible is the name given to both collectively.

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints does accept that they don’t have geographical proof. That is the point. If the Book of Mormon was proven… what then? It would leave the world with only one question – either accept God or reject him. All of Christianity would be LDS, most of the world would be.

    For the Book of Mormon to be proven it would mean that there is a God. Without question. It would literallly prove his existence.

    God does not want that. He does not want to be physically proven. He wants people to believe in him through faith. Not because of signs. Not because of physical proof.

    • As I said this is coming from the perspective from a hypothetical but very real happening that occurs often as you know when Mormon Missionaries visit people daily. Many poeple assume that their book of Mormon is a “Bible”.

      “For the Book of Mormon to be proven…”- Sorry that is a cop out- and I am not looking asking for Mormons to produce PROOF, but rather produce EVIDENCE. That is a big if. You are making huge assumptions. Not just geogrraphical, but linguistic, historical, archological, the list goes on,.. there is nothing. It as if you are saying that if there was any evidence God would not want that? Am I misunderstanding you? Because if you are than that demonstrates that we follow different God’s, because MY GOD gives lots of evidence becuase he wants to be found!

      25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: Acts 17:25-27 (KJV)

      • Oh there are plenty of ‘evidences’: http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml

        However, i would disagree that God wants to be found in the way you are suggesting, because that is to be ‘proven’. Does God want to be proven? If so, wouldn’t he have made it so already?

        Jesus was never happy with those who seek signs to enable them to believe. We ought to believe because of our faith.. and our spiritual experiences… not because we read that God exists in the Science journals.

        Therefore, God does not want the Book of Mormon proven, because if it is, it means that his existence is also proven. There are evidences (see above) but all evidence is there for the interpretation of men. Evidence ought not to be the convincing ingredient you rely on.

        My testimony is not on the physical, but the spiritual.

  4. I am not refering to it that way, I am saying that It is a common misconception. I have already made that point. This is from the view of someone with little knowledge of Mormonism,.. the may assume it is a Bible.

    “You may be able to identify a general region, but not the spot – hence you cannot show me the Garden of Eden on a map.”

    You want me to produce the exact spot are you for real? When the entire Mormon Church cant produce on piece of Physical evidence, I think you are asking well out of your range. I find it intersting how I gave you a real world setting and even a River that is alive and well today for a likely location for the Garden of Eden. If you need a link to find the Euphrates on a Map I will Google on at another time, but I suppose you want GPS cooridnates? No I cannot do that, If I could do that I would not have a day job, but I think that what the Bible gives geographicaly is far superior especially considering it was the first human habitation in all of history, as compared to what anything the Book of Mormon has produced.

    “This is a very valid point, since your attack on the Book of Mormon is that we cannot identify it on a map.”

    Why the persecution complex? I always her “Anti Mormon” if I disagree and dont roll over and blindly believe. Sorry not going to happen. I dont run around saying Anti Christian if you dont believe me. Lets just say we dont agree without the “Attack” verbage.

    “Jesus was never happy with those who seek signs to enable them to believe. ”

    “However, i would disagree that God wants to be found in the way you are suggesting, because that is to be ‘proven’. Does God want to be proven? If so, wouldn’t he have made it so already?”

    I already said,… and i will say it once again. We cannot prove these things, until we talk our last breath. However we rely on a, to use a legal term, a proponderance of eveidence. Christianity has that, the Bible has that, The Book of Moromon does not.

    “We ought to believe because of our faith.. and our spiritual experiences… not because we read that God exists in the Science journals. ”

    Mormons faith is very subjective, you say your expericenes. You are to pray about the Book of Mormon to see if it is true and you will receive a burning in the bosom. The Bible never asks us to do that. The Bible does not get its authority becasue we feel it is right. It is true becuase it was written by God and we have inernal and externial EVIDENCE ( not proof ) of that.

    “Therefore, God does not want the Book of Mormon proven, because if it is, it means that his existence is also proven. ”

    I find that convenient and too easy of an answer. We cant prove anyting so lets just say that God doesnt want it prove. Dan would you accept that in any other arean of life? Really?

    “Oh there are plenty of ‘evidences’: http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml

    Last but not least. Please tell me Mormons still do not cling to the Book Of Abraham as Authentic? J. Smith’s translation was proven a fraudulent. There was no “Reformed Egyptian”. He labeled the pictures wrong, he filled in the pictures wrong, he misrepersented what was happening in the scene. He did not pass the test of a prophet. Why is it that no linguist other than Mromon linguists and historians get what Joseph Smith got? Joseph Smith didnt know that Jean François Champollion (1790-1832), the great French philologist and historian, whose discoveries laid the basis for what is known today as Egyptology by translating the Rosetta Stone. The upper text is Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs, the middle portion Demotic script, and the lowest Ancient Greek.

    Your eveidence states that “Several modified or “reformed” Egyptian scripts are well known, including forms called Demotic and Hieratic. “Reformed Egyptian” is clearly an appropriate generic term for those writing systems.”

    No its not actually, Demotic isnt “Reformed”, it is Ancient, and Hieratic script was invented and developed more or less at the same time as the hieroglyphic script and was used in parallel with it for everyday purposes such as keeping records and accounts and writing letters. So it is not as if it is unknown form of Egyptian that Joseph translated that we know nothing about. Regardless,

    What of The Kinderhook Plates? Frauds.

    What of the “Lamentie” being Jews? Clearly not teh case, they are not Jews! If they are not Jews and he Jews have never been here as inhabitants, could Jesus have actually come to visit the Lamanites and Nephites? Well if there were no Jewish decendents, then there could not have been any Jesus who came to this continent. There is no evidence other than to the contrary.

    I am not trying to be unkind, however The LDS Church is passing itself of Christian when in truth it is not. If they want to be LDS Great, if they want to be another religious option Great, just dont say you are the same as Christianity, it is simply not the truth as our discussion here have clearly demonstrated.

  5. You have emphasised physical evidence, and the fact that we cannot show a map of the Book of Mormon, so I asked you to show me the Garden of Eden on your Bible Map. You cannot – of course. You have only named the river Euphrates, but the actual placing of the Garden is open to much debate. It is unknown.

    Let’s take a closer look at this for a moment. You have no physical evidence of the Garden of Eden, yet you believe it existed. You gave me a real world setting (the Middle East) because much of the Bible is documented from that area. It is a good assumption that the Garden of Eden was placed in that same area too.

    You also refer to the river Euphrates, but aside from this name… the rest is guess work.

    I can similarly point to a real world setting for the Book of Mormon. I can tell you that the first persons recorded in the book started out in Jerusalem. I can even show a possible map of the route they traveled: http://www.latter-day.com/bofm/arabia.htm

    You see, we have both done the same thing. Pointed to a ‘real world setting’ and proposed a possible setting… none of which has been proven, and thus we have no official map.

    You are however happy to believe the Garden of Eden, and dismiss the Book of Mormon on the same basis.

    Regarding your other points, you asked for evidences and I showed you a link. There are many geographical evidences there, but you dismissed them all – instead moving onto the Book of Abraham. How convenient.

    I have already stated, the physical evidence is not important. God does not want to believe in him because of the signs we see, but because of our faith. You keep pushing for evidence, but the reality is you aren’t interested in it. That is merely a front. I could show you other evidences, but would that make a difference to you? no. You would dismiss it regardless…

    Throughout a number of your posts, you continue to copy and paste from websites that are there to attempt to discredit the LDS church. This is not helpful to you. It’s like a Muslim learning about the Bible through anti-Christian websites….

    What do you expect to happen?

    • kealnt on said:

      The LDS Church will take no official position on this becuase it is fictional. Dont be upset with me, be upset with the Church who has the financial means, but not the courage to fund the digs!
      The River and Geography I gave you are REAL. I am sorry if you cannot accept that Christianity deals with Realities while the Mormon Church does not, you gave me a map,… can you tell me anyone outside the LDS who find it credible? ANYONE? Really? What I see are LDS names thrown on a map. Has the LDS Church done archeological digs at these sites, such as Bountiful at the lower right hand corner and found anything to substantiate this as a landmark? Have any relics been found? Any tombs? Remnants of cities? Anything to say that this was a real site,or are these just words superimposed on a map? Its a good thing that evidence is not important,…. because the LDS Church has not produced any. In regards to the websites, they are extremely useful,well documented and researched, but of course, they are labeled anti-Mormon and likely highly dicouraged for you to view.

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